If the LDS took a red pen to the Creed
May 12th, 2007 ~ Articles, La Vida IglesiaMimi mentioned the confusion over Mormon theology back here, and so it seemed as good a reason as any to look into it a little more.
So here’s the Nicene Creed as we say it every week, as Christians have said since the 4th century to express what we believe. As this author notes:
The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief statements of the Christian Faith. In liturgical churches, it is said every Sunday as part of the Liturgy. It is Common Ground to East Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and many other Christian groups. Many groups that do not have a tradition of using it in their services nevertheless are committed to the doctrines it teaches.
I’ve marked up the Creed as a Mormon would have to in order to fit their beliefs (as near as I can figure out — see my remarks at the end), and I’ve got footnotes in case you think I’m making this up. I tried to use Mormon sources whenever possible.
There are some other notes of interest that follow the footnotes, and also a challenge that I have for any Mormons who might read this.
*****
We believe in one God, the main God of a number of Gods(1), who acquired His place as Supreme Being over a long period of time by living a righteous life(2), the Father Almighty, Maker one of the Makers (3) of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible (and Who is married, by the way) (4);
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, one of the spirit children of God (Lucifer being another), (5) the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father (6) by whom all things were made: Who won God’s favor by agreeing with God’s plan of salvation when Lucifer disagreed,(7) and who was called Jehovah in the Old Testament(8).
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary, (9) and was made man, and was married at the wedding in Cana (10);
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father in the celestial kingdom, the highest of the three kingdoms of heaven;(11) And He and Joseph Smith (12) shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets;
And we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. in the Mormon Church, which restores Christianity to the form it had in the time of the apostles.(13)
We acknowledge one Baptism – for both living and dead – (14) for the remission of sins as long as that baptism is conducted by the Mormon Church (15)
We look for the Resurrection of the dead which will be presided over by Joseph Smith,(16)
And the Life of the world to come. And Joseph Smith. (17) Amen.
****
Footnotes:
1 - “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people in it.” Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, pg 308.
2 - “God himself was one as we are now, and is an exalted man … He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth.” Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol 6, pg. 305.
3 - “The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world.” Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 348.
4 - “In the heaven where our spirits were born, there are many Gods, each of whom has his own wife or wives, which were given to him … while yet in his mortal state.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 37.
5 - “The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. he was called Lucifer — this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind.” Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 15.
6 - “Unlike Trinitarians, who believe that the Father and Son are of one essence, Latter-day Saints believe that the members of the Godhead are separate personages united in purpose, power, and glory. This is a key theological difference between us and the Trinitarians.” R. Bruce Walsh, Link HERE
7 - “God put forth His plan of salvation for the world, and Satan proposed his own plan. Jesus accepted the Father’s plan and offered to implement it as the Savior. The Father chose Jesus.” What Do Mormons Believe? Link HERE
8 - “Mormon doctrine teaches that Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. … modern revelation through prophets of the Mormon Church and through other scripture such as the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price make it clear that Jesus Christ is the God referred to in the Old Testament.” LDS Patriot, Link HERE
9 - “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers … Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father.” Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 547, 742.
10 - “Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana– we say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed.” Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol 2, pg. 82.
11 - “The Celestial Kingdom is the highest and most glorious of the degrees of glory and is symbolically represented by the sun. It is this kingdom where God Himself reigns.” Mormon Wiki. Link HERE.
12 - “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, pg. 289
Also, “If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cnnot get around him.” President George Q. Cannon, 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, pg. 142.
13 - (When Joseph Smith asked God in a vision which church he should join:) “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight and those professors were all corrupt.” Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price 2:19.
Also, until 1988 or so, the Endowment Ceremony — a two-hour ritualistic drama that initiated Mormons into the temple and which they were encouraged to revisit frequently — included the following passage where Lucifer attempts to corrupt Adam after the fall by introducing him to his servant, Preacher:
Lucifer:Have you been to college and received training for the ministry?
Preacher: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless he has been trained for the ministry!
Lucifer: Do you preach the orthodox religion?
Preacher: Yes, that is what I preach.
Lucifer: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people and convert them, I will pay you well!
Preacher: I will do my best.
In 1989 when the texts of these rituals could no longer be kept secret, the ceremony was radically altered without any explanation. The portion above was removed, as was a charming ritual where the initiate drew his thumb across his throat to indicate what would happen to him if he revealed the temple secrets.
14 - “Because all on the earth do not have the opportunity to accept the gospel during mortality, the Lord has authorized baptisms performed by proxy for the dead …. Baptisms for the dead can only be performed in temples.” Mormon Wiki. Link HERE.
15 - “All other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism or the Lord’s Supper from their hands will highly offend God.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 255.
16 - “If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is — Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection.” Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, Pg. 116
17 - “Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.… When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” Joseph Smith, Address of the Prophet at Nauvoo, History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412.
*****
Other notes of interest:
Trying to pin down Mormon theology has been difficult work until recently, because it tends to have a fluidity that allows teachings to be stressed at one point and destressed or denied completely if they become inconvenient. That has changed in the age of easy information and increased transparency.
Mormons recognize four sacred texts:
- The Bible, as long as it is “correctly translated.” And who “correctly translates” it? Three guesses. Sample HERE.
- The Book of Mormon, a ripping yarn of ancient peoples fighting it out in America. A brief synopsis:
The Book of Mormon contains the purported stories of three different groups who sailed to the Americas. The Jaredites (Book of Ether) came to the New World at the time of the tower of Babel. The Mulekites came to America from Jerusalem in 586 BC. The major group was the family of Lehi. Two of his sons, Nephi and Laman, became the leaders of the Nephites and Lamanites.
The last battle between the two groups, in 421 AD, wiped out almost all of the Nephites. Moroni, the last surviving Nephite, buried the records of his civilization in the Hill Cumorah. Hundreds of years later, Joseph Smith was directed to the spot by Moroni (some records say Nephi), now a resurrected being who had become an angel. Smith then “translated” the record and published it in 1830 under the title “The Book of Mormon.”
- Journal and Discourses - Which contains 138 sections and two declarations. The first 135 sections contain Joseph Smith’s revelations from 1823 to 1844. The first declaration reversed Mormon teachings on polygamy (1890) and the second ended the disbarment of blacks from the temple (1978).
- The Pearl of Great Price - A collection of sacred writings meant to expand and explain the teachings, and featuring the Articles of Faith at the end, which has undergone numerous revisions.
The problem is that not only do the works change depending on what version you use, but the books contradict each other. A list of contradictions is HERE. So under duress, a Mormon can plausibly deny many teachings. Add to that the fact that you know and they know that you’re not about to go thumbing through the hundreds of pages of these volumes fact-checking, and you start to see why it is so very difficult to pin down a missionary on what his church actually believes.
****
Finally, a challenge to Mormons
If you think I’ve been unfair, I invite you to edit the text of the Nicene Creed — link HERE – in a manner you feel would make it consistent with Mormon doctrine and send it to me. If you do, I will publish it with no remarks of my own.
Contents available under a
May 12th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
I think you forgot their atonement in the Garden of Gethsemene, that was accomplished when Jesus sweated blood, not really on the cross, or it was part of it all, I get confused by all of their stuff but I think I remember being told that that was important.
Truly, I am with you, if they would just be honest and drop all of the Christian rhetoric, which they have no right to call themselves, the JW’s cannot rightly possess the term either things would be much clearer. Glenn Beck was an emotional idiot with Al Sharpton the other night, “am I a Christian? Am I a bigot?” Dear Glenn, that would be a “No, you are an apostate to your Catholic faith” You gave up Jesus Christ for what? Catholics have great family values and sobriety too. What is the Mighty Rev supposed to do, be honest? He’s never honest, he’s a politcal animal and that would be suicide, he’d never get to come back!
I, however, have no problem voting for a Morman, as long as a candidate is prolife, conservative and won’t institute sharia law, I pretty good with them…
Great posts…
Christ is Risen!
Mary-Leah
May 12th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Indeed, He is Risen!
Atonement in the Garden: No kidding. In the Garden??? You know, there’s so much of their stuff that’s just severely weird that after a while it makes your head swim. Spending even this much time trying to get to the bottom of it, you gotta admire the art they’ve made out of picking their words so carefully that they can fool some people. I mean, you obviously don’t want to lead off with the Mr. & Mrs. God thing — might tip off even the less attentive Christians.
Didn’t see Glenn Beck and Reverend Al — sounds like a bit of a fiasco. So who won?
May 13th, 2007 at 12:15 am
Most excellent post, Grace. I’m plagarizing it someday, somewhere…I’ll attribute it if I can remember where I got it, but at my age, no promises! :) The atonement in the garden isn’t peculiar to the Mormons, actually. If I recall correctly there was a Russian Orthodox theologian (Bulgakov?) who theorized that also. It has also been around protestant circles, which may be where Bulgakov(?) picked it up (the Western captivity of Russia thing). Nothing new under the sun.
May 13th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Cool post. S-P and anyone else shoud spread it around the internet. If we could only get Mormons to read and understand it. As for Romney, I could see voting for him over any Democrats, especially that bunch of wacko socialists who’ve already announced. Like Carter’s presidency drawing folks to evangelicalism (not horribly bad, actually), Romney’s faith would end up drawing a good number of people to the “good values” practiced by The “Church” of Jesus Christ of Latter Day “Saints.”
BTW, I don’t know much about Mormon doctrine, but that “revision” stating “And He and Joseph Smith (12) shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead…” doesn’t seem to me to say that Smith will be a co-judge as the footnote suggests. Rather it sounds like Smith will be the first one resurrected. But, I’m no theologian–Orthodox, Mormon, or otherwise.
May 13th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Actually the Rev got the best of Glenn, because Glenn got offended. Imus got brought back up (sigh) and that is when the Rev got the best of Glenn. Ya kinda had to hear the exchange. I don’t know if Glenn just gave up, but he really seem too…
I found this:
He further stated on that same page: “It was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him” (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson- LDS President 1986, pg.15).
In his book “The Promised Messiah,” Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (member Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 1972) wrote, “Forgiveness is available because Christ the Lord sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane as he bore the incalculable weight of the sins of all who ever had or ever would repent” (pg. 337). On page 552 of the same book McConkie continues by saying, “In a garden called Gethsemane, outside Jerusalem’s walls, in agony beyond compare, he took upon himself the sins of all men on condition of repentance.”
As to Bulgakov, he was condemned as a heretic by Met. Krapovitsky for his dabbling with Sophiology to the dismay of many in the west. I have yet to read of any Orthodox teaching that we are ever atoned for by our Lord and Savior sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemene. If you want to make this claim that this is something that has been taught, come up with the source, not just some flimsy, airy, oh that’s old stuff, comment. Remember, though that in Orthodoxy a teaching must be considered Orthodox by everyone, not some one off goofy priest of a theologion who goes the wrong way like Bulgakov apparently did, he doesn’t speak for Orthodoxy, no one man does.
Truly He is Risen!
the handmaid,
Mary-Leah
May 13th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
s-p:
That’s the thing I love about old age: you can use it as a handy excuse for all the stuff you were going to do anyway. Plagiarize away. It would be fitting, seeing as I still have your quick definition of Orthodoxy as the beginning of my “What is Orthodoxy?” article. I credit you, but you know, I’m getting older too, so that could change at any time. :-)
I had read something by John Maximovitch about how far off-base Bulgakov’s theology was, and I didn’t know who that was. Makes a lot of sense, now that I know.
May 13th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Handmaid Mary-Leah:
Indeed He is Risen!
That’s the problem with Glenn Beck, IMHO. He just spazzes out sometimes and ends up overshadowing his point with his own emotionalism and drama. I don’t really know how a person argues with someone like Al Sharpton, but losing your cool seems like a mistake.
By the way, unless I miss my guess, s-p wasn’t trying to say Bulgakov wasn’t a bad guy or that the Church can’t spot a heresy when it sees one. I think he’s just pointing out that these things have a way of turning up like a bad penny. The salient point about it being proffered to the Orthodox Church is that it was utterly rejected, which means the Church was doing her job.
Now, if the Protestant Church had been doing her job, perhaps there wouldn’t be a Mormon church today. Not that it would’ve been taken out by violence or censure, but because its illogical, bizarre and heterodox teachings would’ve been laughed off completely.
May 13th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Liz,
I wonder if getting Mormons to read it would make any difference. I would have assumed that they already knew all this and were ready to defend it tooth and nail because (a) they’d been taught to do that, and (b)people sometimes get ferociously protective of even a twisted belief system, if they think the alternative is not having any belief system at all.
Joseph Smith and the resurrection: I see what you mean. But it seems to me they’ve left the door open there to mean whatever they want it to mean. To me, if you’re saying that no man or woman will enter heaven without his consent, you have to be putting him in a position as judge. But I suppose a person could just deny that.
In any case it is, of course, completely outrageous hubris.
May 13th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Hi Mary Leah (and Grace), Yes, Bulgakov was condemned for “sophia”, and Grace is correct, I wasn’t saying this is Orthodox teaching, merely that it has popped up in the Orthodox Church. I have about 3,000 books on my shelf and 20,000 saved files on all kinds of stuff so I can’t remember which one of them I found that in. You are correct, its not Orthodox, and it has never been affirmed as “Orthodox” by the Church. Thanks for the clarification. If I remember where I saw that and exactly who taught it, I’ll post it on this comment page.
May 14th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
The Brigham Young comment about Joseph Smith is simple. Joseph Smith restored truths that were lost as part of the great apostasy as was prophesied. If one wants to gain exaltation in the world to come, they need to accept the work that Joseph did. In this sense, he becomes a gatekeeper; however, the true gatekeeper is Christ and it is through faith on his name and our good works that we gain our eternal reward.
May 15th, 2007 at 12:46 am
Uh huh. Well, at about this point there’s really nothing else to say.
FWIW, I don’t think it’s very likely that you’ll convince any of my readers — much less my lovely self — of this, so you might want to save up your keystroke strength for greener pastures.
May 15th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Just looking to inform. You seemed to question the comment by Brigham Young. I just wanted to give you the perspective of a member of the Church. Oh–and sorry to hear that you don’t live in green pastures ;-)
May 15th, 2007 at 9:34 am
David,
I think you’re engaging in a bit of wishful thinking, consciously or unconsciously. I wasn’t questioning that statement at all. I think it stands alone — it’s just grandiose delusional nonsense, as is so much of the early stuff. It’s certainly not your fault that your founder and his heir apparent couldn’t have been a little more circumspect with their claims, but offering minor interpretation of their outlandish proclamations may not be as successful a ploy as you imagine. It’s like following behind someone that thinks he’s Napoleon to make sure everyone notices what a nice hat he’s wearing.
May 18th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
David and Grace,
I think the bottom line comes down to faith. After 1800 years of apostasy and false Christianity God finally decides to introduce to the entire world “truths that were lost in the great apostasy” through Joseph Smith… AND many of these “truths” bear little or no resemblance to much of what is accepted as “Truth” as taught in the Scriptures or bear a lot of resemblance to heresies taught in the first 3 centuries of Church history? That is as fantasmagorical (or moreso) as believing that the “truth once for all delivered to the saints” was preserved and taught and believed for 2000 years without the need for a late coming prophet to restore something that is not really a “restoration” but a lot of innovation. Either we hang with the words of Christ in the Bible that the gates of hades won’t prevail against the historic Church established by Christ on Pentecost, or we hang with the latter day prophet or apostle of our choice dating anywhere from 35AD to present, teaching the doctrines we can convince ourselves are true. In all ages including apostolic times there is a plethora of dogmas to choose from. I own an icon that is older than the Mormon Church. By faith, I’ll hang with the Church that produced that icon. In the end we can’t pretend we are all saying the same thing… we’re not. One is right, one is wrong. That is not to judge the sincerity or zeal of anyone, including the Orthodox, but it boils down to Truth.
If Jesus “is Truth” as He claims, we need to get Him right. If we get Him wrong, we get EVERYTHING wrong. Sobering stuff.
May 19th, 2007 at 11:42 am
I’ve never written anything about the Greek Orthodox religion, let alone tear it up and spit it out. Why do ye persecute the Mormons?
May 20th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Garry,
Please write about the Orthodox Church (Greek Orthodox is only one archdioscese. I’m actually part of the Antiochian Orthodox church, but it’s all one big happy family, so if you research Greek or Russian Orthodox, you’ll still have the right church). You can do exactly what I did with the Mormon church, which is to say:
* examine its beliefs
* hold it accountable for its claims
* fact-check the words of its founding fathers
* examine its history
You could start here or here or here.
You might find out interesting things. As I said to you back here, the church that Joseph Smith said had been in apostasy since the death of the apostles is alive now and always has been.
I don’t think I’m persecuting anyone. I am trying to get to the root of what Mormons believe, and I’m contrasting that with the beliefs that Christians have always held to.
Today in our church calendar we commemorate of the First Ecumenical Council, when 318 church fathers from the known world gathered to deal with a heresy and come up with a common creed for all Christians. The year was 325, and the result was the Nicene Creed, which Christians have used ever since to establish what does and does not meet the mark of true Christianity. That Mormons can not pass that test says all that needs to be said. In short, I’m not persecuting your church — it persecutes itself.
As s-p said above, it’s all about the Truth.
May 22nd, 2007 at 8:49 am
Garry & Grace - it looks to me like Garry may be offended because the Mormon faith has been compared to historic Christianity and it is not the same. Since it is not the same, then the Mormon faith cannot be legitimately called “Christian” in the traditional sense. Has Garry’s life been changed by it and is he now a better person because of it? According to his posts, I truly think he has, so just because Mormonism is not traditionally “Christian” in no way negates his life-changing experiences. There are many people whose lives have been changed for the better through other religions.
However, if Garry is offended because he recognizes that Mormonism does not compare favorably with Orthodoxy, then perhaps he instinctively recognizes the truth and is uncomfortable with the fact he is not a part of it. Not to say God doesn’t change people outside the Orthodox Church, He certainly does, but as stated above, if it is the Truth you seek, then it is in Orthodoxy where you will find your home.
May 22nd, 2007 at 8:56 am
While it is commendable that Garry has become a better person, it is all for naught if he does not accept the Truth, for there is no salvation outside of the Church.
May 22nd, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Dean, I totally agree, but as you know, God cannot be narrowly defined, and Garry’s experiences may be leading him up to this beautiful moment when he recognizes that the Church, the Body of Christ, is his salvation - but, like us all, he is only responsible for what he knows - now that he knows of the Church, the bar has been raised for him (see Romans chapters 1 and 2).
May 22nd, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Garry,
This comment thread was getting too long and unwieldy, so I posted your last comment as another blog entry along with my answer.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:47 am
Mary-Leah, I definatly agree with you when you say, “Remember, though that in Orthodoxy a teaching must be considered Orthodox by everyone, not some one off goofy priest of a theologion who goes the wrong way like Bulgakov apparently did, he doesn’t speak for Orthodoxy, no one man does.”
But you all shoudl remember that this applies to Mormonism as well. So even though you quote a Mormon source, a Mormon Leader, or even Joseph Smith, that does not make it Mormon Doctorin.
A good example is, “10 - “Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana– we say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed.” Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol 2, pg. 82.”
This is not taught by the church.
Ironicly even being in the book Mormin Doctorin doesn’t make it Mormon Doctorin. Bruce R. McConkie the books author, while he is a was a well know member of the 12 apostles, is often criticized for many assumptions that he’d drawn.
I can see how this would make it hard to pin down just what Official Mormon Doctorin is, but if any of you are interested, please comment back with your address, and I’ll gladly send some LDS missionaries to your house to educate you. I used to be one and am sure they would be happy to have the opportunity not to try to convert you, but to share with you our beautiful faith.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Dave mentions rightfully that LDS do not generally adhere to what is in the Journal of Discourses. However, the problem is that at one point, many mormons did believe this stuff. The fact that the Jesus/Cana confusion or the Adam=God theory could even be annunciated and then actually committed to print, speaks to the incredible doctrinal confusion of the early Mormon leaders. The fact that this stuff was actually taught by their “prophets” and “revelators” is all the more embarassing. They never answer the question, other than to admit that these doctrines were “of men”, not of God.
Really, the whole Journal of Discourses is the record of an incrediblly confused American sect, speculating and teaching stuff in complete isolation from any real criticism or scholarship. Once people in Utah did collide with the modern age, nearly all that stuff had to be thrown in the garbage. I don’t think modern LDS read ANY of the JofD at all.
Mormons get irritated when we criticize their origins, history and beliefs. And yet they believe that all other churches have fallen into apostasy. Turn about is fair play, friends. It’s not persecution, it’s called honesty.
Some of the most damning and embarassing material is on their apologetic websites: FARMS and FAIR. Some really goofy stuff. They read a lot like the young earthers and such like. There is a tremendous drop in numbers of conversions, growth overall has slowed way down.
May 28th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Steve,
Thanks for some very interesting perspective. I hate to keep talking about these things without getting some idea of how things look on the inside, but it’s so nearly impossible for Mormons not to start proselytizing or blowing smoke under these circumstances.
I had wondered about that comment of Dave’s a little bit. He certainly would know more than I do about whether that belief is current or not, but how is it that they EVER had people coming up with things like that only to be dismissed later on? We don’t, for example, say in an offhand way, “Oh yeah, St. Anthony the Great believed that the Lord and Lazarus were the same person, but we’ve decided we don’t think that anymore. No biggie.” It does give one the impression, as you say, of people off on their own making up things as the mood strikes them. Not a stunning endorsement, particularly when the church has to keep “changing its mind” on doctrine. (I went to the site of a former Mormon who told the story of his rift with the church. It started over that Adam=God doctrine and the subsequent denial of it, when the man could document its evidence completely. It made him doubt that they were being as completely honest and completely inspired as they had taught him, and once he doubted that, the whole belief system fell apart.)
Interesting also to hear about the numbers. The number given for their American membership was, I believe, 24 million. Yet www.adherents.com gives the number of their worldwide membership as 12 million. There may be some reason for the discrepancy. But anyway, I believe even they would concede they haven’t made the global impact that they were hoping for. The LDS are likely to stay a particularly American sect.