“… a living word, warmed with love …”
May 19th, 2009 ~ Potpourri for 100, Alex, Orthodox perspectiveFrom “Daily Lives” today …
The hearts of other sinners have been softened by discussions with pious people. You, too, go and have a discussion. If you hear word after word of discussion, will not one word strike you that will be unto the separation of soul and spirit, according to the thoughts of the heart? Perhaps a living word, warmed with love, will penetrate deep into your heart and shatter the stronghold of sin residing therein.
– St. Theophan the Recluse
I thought that was very timely, considering the topic and discussion below about these very difficult conversations with hostile nonbelievers. Goodness knows, a person has to use discernment. There are some of them that are just a waste of everyone’s time. But then … there are some of them that only seem like a waste of time.
That cuts both ways. If you DO open the door to some kind of dialogue, you have to be ready to find out that you might learn something. The botheration for atheists is that I don’t mean by that that I’m going to “learn” how to be faithless (been there, done that). I think that actually I’m learning a little about the wheat and the chaff in my own beliefs. There are things that sound good to other Christians and things we preen ourselves with and admire the effect (”Yes, I look very pious when I say that! What a fine turn of phrase!”). But they aren’t real, and anyone coming from a different perspective can see in an instant they’re not real. Which is why I think Steven is right in the comment on the last post. Unfortunately, sometimes we do look like the stereotype. And then sometimes, they really just do detest anything wearing a cross. So it’s another case for discernment whether to consider the critique or reject it.
I’m obviously still working through it myself. Maybe I would’ve been better off not to even get into this. The chance of shedding any light in other people’s lives may be nearly nil. I’m not so sure about the chance of shedding light in my life.
Contents available under a
May 19th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Grace, I co-moderate a forum for a very popular guitarist. One of the other 2 mods is an atheist, with his own blog stating clearly his beliefs. In the “General Discussion” section, there are no topics that are off limits with only 2 very simple rules: no profanity or porn, and no personal attacks; i.e., “flaming”. Debate the idea, but never attack the person. The mods are given a lot of leeway in their discretion in applying the 2nd. With flagrant violations, the 1st mod to see it drops the hammer. The more subtle ones we discuss and then act as a unit.
The worst offenders of violating the 2nd rule were coming from an evangelical/fundamentalist mindset (in the protestant sense of the words). One had to be banned, the others left the forum with a ceremonial “shaking the dust off of our feet” in a grandiose manner fitting a drama queen. Their behavior on the forum was very similar to how I’ve seen Dawkins behave. All we did was enforce a very sensible rule of the forum, and they accused us of persecution, and accused me of siding with the enemy.
The atheist and I have had many discussions on the forum debating our ideas, off of the forum we usually limit our dialogue to the workings of the forum. He has admitted to me that he has learned a lot from me, and I will thank him for challenging my convictions.
The optimist in me likes to think, that even if I did not convert this atheist, I’ve at least planted a seed. And even if I did not plant a seed, maybe a microcosm of what a democratic society should be has been established. On a social level, bad behavior is exactly that, regardless of which side of the line it’s coming from.
It is because of my experience here that the door should always be open.
May 20th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Grace and Ken, Yep. I always ask atheists “Tell me about the god you don’t believe in” and invariably it is the fundamentalists’ angry God who kills Jesus to satisfy his wrath. I reject that god too. At the risk of being self promoting, I just did a podcast on Madalyn O’Hare and atheism
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/hope_a_paschal_reflection
I think there is great potential for fruitful dialogue with atheists. Dawkins and prima donna fundies are all cut from the same drama queen cloth. Their religion is a prop for personal issues IMHO. I don’t waste my time with either of them.
May 22nd, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Maybe Kevin has the right idea… only that the seed we plant is not necessarily faith in another person, but perhaps understanding and patience with those who do believe. I think even the fundamentalists with whom I’ve been uncomfortable all my life probably mean well… but just don’t know better. And it may be a pretty doggone good thing to defuse wrath… what’s that thing, “Blessed are the peacemakers…” ?
I think Fr. Meletios Webber’s comments that as Americans we often say, “I believe” and mean “I have these opinions I”m willing to defend to the death…” means that often as people of faith, we’ve been very agressive in our Way. It’s helpful for folks perhaps to see that there is another more down to earth, and respectful way. But I don’t know exactly how you differentiate kindly between a full faith… and something less. So the whole seems a slippery slope. Hats off to Kevin for navigating this.
May 23rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Along these lines, I’ve had the thought recently that atheists and agnostics have gone from not believing there’s a God to not believing there are godly people, from not believing there was a real Christ to not believing there are any real Christians. I can imagine a lot of causes for that that I can’t control, including a certain narrowness on their part and the high visibility of “loudly-Christian” types who turn everyone off. But the part of it I can control is how I come off, how I behave — moments of bad temper or unfortunate shallowness. Do I bring honor to the name of ‘Christian’? And if there are those who assume all Christians are dishonorable, do I at least cause them to give that assumption a moment’s pause?